Traffic Hoopla’s Latest…
So Traffic Hoopla wrote a post about how social marketing in the traffic exchanges is over rated and not worth doing. You can read it right here…
It’s no secret, and this shouldn’t come as a shock but I completely disagree with everything that Bill wrote. I firmly believe one must DO social marketing to be able to comment whether or not it works.
Take this for example, I responded to his post and I got the message ‘your comment is awaiting moderation’…Not very 2.0-ish of a blog to ‘moderate’ it’s comments. And as I write this the comment has still not been published on the Hoopla blog. To be social, you must allow for discussions to take place. Not approving my comment yet and or having moderation wait times just isn’t in tune with how social media and marketing works…But I digress.
So why does Traffic Hoopla think social media doesn’t work? Because you can’t measure social media. What is the return on investment of a relationship? How does one measure the bond you build with other surfers? Or as Gary Vaynerchuk once said…’How do you measure the ROI on the relationship with your mother?’
Since 2002 Hoopla has been a stats machine. And with that, Hoopla’s numbers have always been about how much commissions certain traffic exchanges bring in for Hoopla and how many hits it’s delivered. So I am not surprised for this recent post, mainly because you can’t measure social marketing in terms of week by week.
Yeah Easy Hits 4 U might bring you ten thousand hits an hour, but without people KNOWING who you are, and recognizing your name, the numbers alone mean squat these days.
But alas, I’m surfing the traffic exchanges every day. I talk to other surfers. I see what they are talking about and social marketing and in surf chat are not just the future, it’s the present. And it’s happening right now.
So I guess it comes down to forward progress versus something that is losing touch with the reality of the present day and age traffic exchange. Again, it’s much more than just numbers folks. It’s relationships, and THAT cannot be measured by numbers ever.
Thoughts, comments? I welcome them always, can’t wait to read them and I will never ‘moderate’ your opinions!
Update: My comment was approved around 7:50 pm eastern time. Thank you Bill for letting me share my thoughts on your blog. Get rid of that ‘moderation’ wait time so we can have some healthy discussions!
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Slight disagreement here … There are only so many hours in a day and if you can’t measure where is the best way to spend your time and money. I agree that social marketing can help your bottom line, but I can’t see any way of measuring what ways and sites work and which don’t
You Go Jon!
I sent them a support ticket asking for information once and the were so polite as to never ever answer me. So I have just never ever gone back there since.
Public Relations is very important to me and I feel any business should at least return a polite reply or something.
Keep Up The Great Posts Jon!
Krazy Kaye
Social Marketing isn’t something like a clincal trial where you take measurement and gain actual results from the time/effort/whatever you put into your business, such as Twitter or Facebook usage or attending a seminar such as TE Live. It is introducing yourself to the world so that when people see your splash pages (or other ads), you have a better chance of it actually being read (and maybe an actual response) because they know about you already.
I think you hit this right on the money – how do you measure the ROI on relationships? As far as I know, there is no formula for measuring and analyzing how much our relationships are worth… thank goodness! I have seen amazing relationships develop at TELive and various surf chats, and have personally gotten to know some womderful people. For me, that’s priceless.
Thanks folks, your comments are much appreciated.
I just think people need to remember where the message is coming from. From a company built around the numbers. And when you can’t measure something just with numbers, people get scared.
This is forward thinking. Adapt or die type stuff lol
I can see both sides of the issue, but ultimately it comes down to making the decision to participate in social media … with the understanding in advance that you WON’T be able to have those safe, secure numbers upon which to fall back.
People who believe in numbers, measures and analysis will always have a great deal of trepidation about anything that requires a leap of faith.
From a traditional, measurable metric point-of-view as a business owner, social media IS a leap of faith. But as has been pointed out many times already, relationships are priceless and, if done well, provide mutual benefits.
Jon,
Great post…
But, you know as well as I, that many, many people would stand in the middle of the desert, parched with thirst…
and, hold an umbrella over their heads, if it began to rain!
Old habits die hard, and die hards just die… lol
Keep plugging,
Carl
Jon,
You know as well as I, that many, many people could stand in the middle of a desert, parched with thirst…
and still hold an umbrella over their heads, if it rained!
Old habits die hard, and die hards just die… lol
Keep plugging,
Carl
That’ a really good point Phil. I guess I’m so passionate about this social stuff maybe I’m not looking at both sides.
However, my problem is with telling people the social stuff doesn’t work. That’s my thing. Especially coming from someone who doesn’t even take part in social surfing.
LOLOL Thanks Carl. Very true sir, very true.
I agree Jon, the future of so many things on the net are going to be, if not already — Social. The best part is we’ll have some measure soon… Twitter firehose anyone!
Keep up the good work and amazing posts!!
Interesting as Ive just read both viewpoints……I have never been in favour of just building the list!
We are marketing to people..not a number.
The contacts we make are vital..networking with friends old and new cannot be measured – thank goodness.
Hey Diane,
Can you measure the value of good customer service (or as one TE guru wrote “customer loyalty”)? Maybe it won’t be the thing that will bring in the business, but I guarantee you without good customer service you WILL lose business.
It is also the thing that time and time again will keep your customers coming back for more.
Maybe you can’t measure it quantifiably like a conversion rate on your hits at a TE, but it DOES make a difference in your overall bottom line.
I think social marketing is the same way. You can’t underestimate its importance and worrying about the “measurement” of it is just going to delay you going out and developing solid relationships. Maybe we should stop “measuring” and just start listening to our customers, our colleagues, and our members. Perhaps when we start doing that we will understand their needs and wants and find better ways to fulfill them instead of giving them recycled rubbish that has been circulating for the last 15 years.
Just my 2 cents.
Mike C.
BAM! Post of the week right there, thanks Mike.
Totally agree. Stop worrying about the measurements and let’s just LISTEN to what surfers are talking about.
Bang on.
Hi Jon
I too was a little surprised with the message.Where have they been.I have seen a definite growth in my results since embracing social networking,and its fun as well.The chats at ILH and Traffic Swirl have got me signups purely from people knowing who I am without selling.
Cheers
Grant aka drkelp
Well written post Jon. Let’s face it, we are the convergence of the new dawn of marketing and advertising on the Internet. Social media is a great tool for marketers to brand themselves and introduce products to the marketplace. Ask anyone in sales and they will tell you the best customer is a return customer. Well, social media gives you the ability to ready get to communicate with the market and your customers. Familiarity breeds sales. Who would you rather buy from? Someone you know and trust or a faceless, nameless entity endlessly pitching but never asking about your needs. Yes, we need the statistical analysis but the ability to know your customer has been the creedo of successful sales and marketing for ages. Social media is just the logical extension of successful business practices.
Thank Grant, ya I had to write this blog post after about an hour of reading the post. I had to calm down and make some sense LOLOL
Dwight – oh absolutely. It’s completely an extension of what already works. I still list build. I still brand my businesses. I just use social marketing and surfing to help grow my business. It’s very natural =)
You can’t measure social marketing? I think you can. You measure it by the amount of interaction you are willing to commit to it, case in point he did not respond-there for it will not work for him or any one else who chooses not to commit to making it work.
social marketing is like anything else we do on here it takes lots of work-Take TEs for example most people fail WHY they don’t commit and do the work, guess what The outcome will be (TEs don’t Work) oh well some will-most wont- so what, let us stay on the winning side, and commit to what we do..
I have used and endorsed Hoopla for a long time.
Lately I have been wondering about their TE statistical relevance – because they can no longer measure what I’m doing
Yes their Top 5 has 5 very good exchanges and their Safelist rankings are pretty much spot on BUT they measure click throughs and commissions.
What they can’t don’t and are unable to measure is the impact of social involvement.
How do you compare a new Twitter follower’s worth to a new facebook followers worth to a faceplate relationship or a subscriber?
I can be involved at Sweeva or T Swirl or Thumb VU and I can get impact in all areas.
The game is changing
Get with it or get out
Social media marketing is simple in nature. You connect with your customers in the fashion that they want to be connected with while at the same time advertising to potential customers that you stand behind your products, services, and customers needs.
What is your ROI on replying to a support email? You can’t measure it. But if you reply in a way that makes that customers day or exceeds their expectations, then you could have a very loyal customer who tells other potentially loyal customers to come your way.
Social media sites allow you to do the same as replying to that email, but only in a transparentout in the open arena.
But here’s the best part… because of the viral nature of social networks like facebook and twitter your message can be seen by more people and shared on a massive scale.
Should you be using social media? Yes, and saying otherwise is like saying that you don’t care to reach out and meet your customers half way and make it clear to others that you stand behind your business.
Traffic may equal stats and if all you looking for is a hit to your site that is fine.
If you want to develop relationships then chatting is the way to do it.
Nothing beats 1 on 1 conversations to convert leads to sales.
Edgar, Mark, John – Thanks guys. Your input is very much appreciated.
I think the big thing is that you don’t need to stop doing old school marketing, I think you should adopt the new school to add to your old school of way of doing it.
Or you can go all in like I’m doing LOL It’s fun!
Tom – thanks man. And I COMPLETELY agree!
Cool Traffic? Really?
All I can say is where I stand with it. Its not required to make a boat load of money online. Its all about how YOU want to make money online. As an affiliate or running your own business. People do not need to know who you are to sell products to. I run banner ads on countless blogs that rake in money on clickbank and do people know that I am behind the scenes and promoting them that product? NO! But being social has its pros and its cons
Pro – Stronger connection with people they trust you end up buying from you more
Cons – You slip up just once it can totally trash your name and image even if was something out of your hands.
Sean – Sure you may get the odd person click on a banner and such, but the real power of a STRONG affiliate marketer is the relationship they have with their list and their circle of influence.
I’d rather build relationships and then promote something I believe in to my list. Much more powerful than getting random clicks.
But I do agree with your pros and cons…As for the con, just be yourself and you never need to worry about it. People hate me as much as like me, because I mess up all the time.
Heck me opening my mouth about this topic is going to leave some people hating me *maybe* LOL I dunno lol But it’s fun!
Hi Jon, I always relate online businesses back to the real world. If you run an offline business entirely by the numbers and don’t interact with the “real people” then everyone knows you are losing sales. No one would argue with that. Why should the online world be any different. NOTHING will replace that “face to face” contact. I have made 4 really good online connections that has resulted some really good advice and training in both directions, improvements in both my and the others online business and more sales of the programs I promote. Anyone that bases their business entirely on the “numbers” will miss this sort of thing entirely. I relate this to ‘karma’ in that if you are nice to enough ppl then it will reward you in ways which you cannot foresee. Perhaps why you are still doing this business after 10+ years Jon and ppl are still listening
Just my thoughts.
Cheers
Martin Webster
Thanks for the comments Martin and I totally agree. It’s about time we put ‘people’ back in these businesses =)
I find social media just takes up too much time. My followers on Twitter, tweet businesses 20 times a day I hate that. They probably send by some sort of
Face book apart from family are a few real friends and fellow TAE owners, safelist owners and a few TE owners.
The majority are past acquaintances from an off line MLM I gave up two years ago.
Most have no idea what I am talking about if I talk IM so writing anything comes far down in my list of daily tasks and
rarely gets done.
How do you get customers on either twitter or facebook?
Jean – be yourself. It should take anytime rally because all it is, is interaction. Also, in the traffic exchange side of things, it’s surfing, coming to seminars, engaging others, posting comments in blogs, writing your own blog, chatting in surf, just the things people normally do.
As for return on investment for customers, the more you engage people, interact with them, the more they ‘get to know’ you. That’s how you generate customers. But they aren’t customers, they are your friends first and that’s why it’s so powerful =)
Hope this helps and thanks so much for the comments.
Martin’s post is spot on. The Banks here in Australia run everything by numbers they pay lip service to customer service and then get offended when customers walk.
Numbers never lie but they don’t tell the whole truth either.
When I worked for a bank,, I had a boss who used to say everything was good until we put the number crunchers in authority
WTG Jon. I enjoyed reading this post. For me Social Networking has increased my business, by 50%, I never thought that would be possible.
Since we set up MCB= My Community Chat Box at our TE, we are now interacting with so many TE Owners and the results have been astounding. I just love it.
IM Faceplate has been the BEST investment I ever made, I enjoy all my wonderful followers and see it goes both ways.
So bottom line, Social Networking/Marketing works for me. Always has, now I just have so many other places to meet and work with likeminded people.
social marketing is like anything else we do on here it takes lots of work-Take TEs for example most people fail,because they don’t commit themselves and are willing to do the work. They are just looking for short cuts, to a quick buck, or instant results..
In my many years on the net, my biggest complaint has always been, NO interaction from so many Owners of their products, I bought something from. Well now we have that wonderful Opportunity. If we use it wisely we will all benefit from the effort we put into it. It goes without saying, I ONLY buy from people that I trust, because they have taken the time to get to know me and my needs.
Monika
Social Marketing is another way to brand yourself. Which has always improved results. I’ve seen the power of social marketing before it really occured to me that was what was powerful. The StartXchange forum is one of the main reasons StartXchange has grown over the years, and I never even figured it out. Until all this social stuff started to get big.. It’s because it was already social!
Thanks Monika, I very much appreciate your comments and shared experiences. Great stuff!
Tim – Yes sir. It’s such a natural thing, many of us have already been doing for years.
After reading Traffic Hoopla’s self promoting blog I would be hard pressed to rely on just statistics and numbers in today’s marketplace. Sure the bottom line is important but without knowing your customers you might as well try selling vacuum cleaners door to door. Social marketing has been since man saw a way to make a profit. The only difference now is it is global and instant. Lets all be social and leave the number crunchers in our wake.
Ronald LOLOLOL Yes sir, I love that last bit sir. Great stuff.
As always there are two sides to every story, and both Jon and Bill have aired their sides with regards to Social Marketing…
It’s these things that give people the opportunity to read up and make a decision as to wether they stick with the numbers or go for the social building…
For me personally, when I surf, I want to to surf and look at the offers that I am being presented with. As a free member at every TE I belong to, I have to surf a fair amount of pages in order to receive a low ratio back…therefore, if I spend my time chatting, I will not only miss what the members are displaying to me, but also end up surfing about 2 pages lol…I do love a chat
There are enough Social Platforms out there to get to know other marketers, so for now i’ll just keep on with the “Billy No Mates Surfing” – lol
My TAE has a chat box that is connected to many other TAE’s, but not much in the way of social interaction goes on there, just a ton of advertising…as one comment on there once said – “Welcome to Spam Box”…
BTW – Great posts by all
Thanks for now
Craig
PS…keep up the good informative posts Jon, they’re always a pleasure to read, even when i don’t agree
Jon, Great post..!!
How the heck do you put a measure on Facebook Like(Fan) pages Traffic?
Which is Huge.. or on You Tube
Social Media is the NOW
Clicks and Hits are the Past
Wow, Dec 1 already
Merry Xmas to All
Cheers,
Dave
I’m a numbers guy. I like high traffic flow with click thru’s and opt-ins that I can count. It’s easy.
When the process is in place to convert those numbers, just buy some more traffic and turn a profit then take the rest of the day off.
But high conversions and a building customers/partners for life still requires a personal touch. We have to build relationships. For me that ‘social’ aspect occurs later in the process.
Moving the personal interaction to the front of my marketing would certainly shorten the process and require less ‘traffic’ to reach the same final goal… long term business relationships.
It will also require a change in how I present myself to the market. Simply using the same advertising clearly would not work as it is targeted to those who, like me, like numbers.
I need to become more sociable. :~)
On a positive note… I did pick up a copy of your new book, Social Surfing Secrets, along with branding rights. There may be hope for me yet!
Scott LOLOL Nice man, thanks for picking it up. And thanks for the comments, of course I agree completely with you.
Dave – LOL Very true sir. Bang on, on all counts.
Craig – Thanks for the comments sir. Glad you enjoy them even if you disagree with them. That’s the power of this social stuff, we don’t have to agree, we just need to share opinions =)
Jon:
Completely agree with your point about saying social networking doesn’t work when one hasn’t tried it. That is completely not cool.
Hmm.. ok then… lets TRY and measure that Social ROI…
If it wasn’t for social I wouldn’t have got the first 4 beta testers in the L Team, which lead to the next 77 testers.. which lead to a successful launch, which lead to the first 250 members.. which lead to 500.. which lead to 1,000, which lead to 1,500, which is quickly approaching 2,000 just over a couple months after launch…
That successful program lead to the successful launch of Traffic Swirl..
So what’s the ROI on Social?
Well for me it was 2 successful program launches with a combined almost 3k members.. but I dunno, maybe it was just blind luck and pretty splash pages that did it and not me going out there and talking to people.. yeah right…
I could spout off all the statistics and links to all the research done over the last year on the effectiveness of social engagement, but I don’t feel like that is necessary for people to physically see the value being created in it.. but if you insist, email me and I’ll go off on a tangent for 3 days about
Just reading through the comments, sorry to double comment here.. but.. for the sake of argument, you really CAN measure the return of social engagement if you do high detailed tracking as far as individual conversions and logging the interaction (or lack there of) with those individuals..
And Jon You made a comment “I think the big thing is that you don’t need to stop doing old school marketing, I think you should adopt the new school to add to your old school of way of doing it.”
EXACTLY! This is what I was trying to say in that thread in NMF that just kept going in circles with Ian, lol, Social is not the end all be all, but it’s another tool, and a very, very, effective one.
John – Absolutely. I mean my thing is people just relying on old school ways will be left behind. Tim made a kick butt post about it too. The power of this stuff is getting people to know and like you. Same thing we did years ago with personal branding, now we just get engage people more.
Hi Jon,
I agree with you on the social networking!
I would love to come up with something witty, but it has been a long hard day for me so I won’t even try.
It’s no secret that a sponsor should communicate with their downline and when they do their results are usually far better than if they don’t contact them and form a relationship. It’s something that most will probably agree with!
Social Networking is basically the same as far as I am concerned or atleast very close to it.
If we socialize with people many times they will already have an idea of what type of person we are and then half of the work as a sponsor is already done right? It just took place before the person joins our downline!
Judging from some of the things I read here about Traffic Hoopla not answering support tickets, maybe they don’t agree with forming relationships with downline members either?
I used to be invisible online for the most part, just promoting my opps and spinning the wheel hoping to get lucky and magically find signups.
Since I started being more social online I have had people I know have actually asked me for my referral links.
I wonder how Traffic Hoopla would try to explain that?
Jeff Peterson
Jeff – LOLOL No need for witty if you can’t come up with anything. That comment was bang on. The amount of ‘referrals’ I have made over the years from people simply asking me for one…All because I make sure I’m visible.
My last comment, I promise, lol.. I thought it was a little oxymoronic that they go on a social platform to say social doesn’t work.. they gave their opinion, engaged users with relevant content, and even continued to engage them by responding to their comments.. all to say it’s a waste of time and doesn’t work.. kind of silly to me.. there must be something in it that is working for them to feel the need to do it with their blog, even if it’s to say it doesn’t work…
Jon
I agree with you, Jon. We at thetrafficdance do not just want to be a TE where you can surf. We want to be there for our members and others too. I have now built thetrafficdanceblog and thetrafficdancecafe(almost finished) a social site. They are for everyone. I want to get to know our members, and not just know they are a member. Sociology is a science, a body of knowledge about human social activity. It will enlarge as time goes on, to a main factor in this web. Everyone should practice sociology. You can start doing it very easy, with politeness and the indulging in your immediate conversation partner, which many ignore totally, with saying , have no time.
Thanks
Jay Dee
Did someone misread my Blog post? I am not against the social. I love Blogging, Twitter, etc. In fact, our home page has been a blog for many years, our Twitter is active and full, and a large portion of our business comes from relationships/friends.
My message, my point, is about hit exchanges with a focus on the social and whether or not they are best. So far, in the hit exchange world, by the stats, they have not dominated.
It is amazing how these things go when from someone who does not like us, with a long history of grumbling and complaining, with all out hatred against anything and everything we do, gets their feathers ruffled.
I have known and worked with you (Jon Olson) since you were in online marketing diapers. We were good friends at one time, but at some point that changed, around the time of Affiliate Funnel, and I am still scratching my head what happen. At one time, we enjoyed a wonderful meal together here in Dallas, talking, laughing, doing the social. Have you noticed the one thing that has not changed? My participation and support of everything you do, and this continues today, and I always bring my wallet. Our relationship story is sad. I sure wish you’d get over your Hoopla bent.
Bottom line, at the end of the day, the success or failure of any business is determined by results, revealed by stats, numbers. I purposely did not call out your social exchange by name. Hit exchanges have added social elements for many years now, and what we see, has been consistent with all.
There is a lot of talk about the social today, especially in the online marketing world. The problem is that it takes a lot of time. From a productivity perspective, we all can buy into it if the results are there. If not, none of us can afford it. Time is extremely valuable, and productivity & results are important.
Ask any seasoned, and successful marketer, who has spent any significant time hanging around forums, chat rooms, conferences. Sure, you may make a connection, signup or two, but often, not anything that will pay the mortgage. At the end of the day, you must get out of the chair, roll up your sleeves, go to work, get traffic, and get significant results.
I speak from experience, and you, Jon, know this. I have been there done that. Spent hours every day in forums, setting records for post, mostly reaching out and helping others with no strings attached. At some point, when evaluating my results, evaluating my bottom line, I had to reorganize my time, get more productive, and decreased forum time. Almost every seasoned/successful marketer I know, at some point or another, has done the same.
On another topic, commented here —
What? Traffic Hoopla not answering support? Are you kidding me? Excellent customer service has been the hallmark of my online career. Even my good friend Jon Olson knows this.
Bill Carr
TrafficHoopla.com
Wow what an awesome post. Let me start by saying. I don’t ever surf over there. Guess why? because I don’t know them. Guess why I surf Sweeva or Traffic Swirl? I know the owners and they have come highly recommended because they take time to interact with their members. Oh and BTW I don’t like to surf, and sometimes feel its a big time waster, but it does have significance whether we believe it or not. IE Social networking. People like to buy from like minded people. If you don’t pay attention to the trends and stay on board with whats happening in the universe you will get left behind. Great post Jon We love what you do. Your honest upfront and don’t BS anyone and for that I’m sure many people treasure you for that. I know I do. Keep on keeping on brother. Have an excitingly Prosperous day.
Though I am new to Traffic Exchange world must admit seeing social aspect in the Traffic Exchanges make me feel that I am not surfing alone…
Must admit that I don’t participate in the chats that often (though I should), I read other peoples conversations…
Great caracter of Bill to show up here and leave a comment.
I get a bit bored about all the nagging on things that are not Sweeva to be honest.
Jay Dee / Robert – Thanks folks. I really do appreciate your input and comments.
Bill – I appreciate you coming and sharing your side. But again, you are looking at the numbers, you are not looking at the social impact of social surfing.
It’s not about ‘time’. It’s about being natural, being human. Social marketing takes no extra time at all, that has become an excuse of people who are ignorant to it’s power.
And I’m not ‘anti-Bill Carr’ at all man. That Affiliate Funnel stuff is ancient news bro, I will never agree on how you rank stuff but I’ve learned to live with it lol
This is about the power you have in this industry and then telling your followers that social surfing isn’t worth doing.
It’s wrong and completely irresponsible for you to say that with the influence you have.
Telling people to track and test for themselves, that makes sense. But telling people it doesn’t work, when honestly you don’t even do it yourself, isn’t fair.
Walter – Don’t think I mentioned Sweeva once in the post but hey, thanks for the plug. It’s nice to be noticed.
Ahhh the ‘Power You Have’ phase….
Jon, maybe you will remember when I last used that phrase with you?
Wasn’t it on the subject of ‘Team Builds’ a few months ago?
LOL – Couldn’t help myself…
Jeff
It pains me to say anything that sounds so politically
correct, but I agree with both Bill and Jon.
Jon, the human element of social marketing is not only
necessary in this market, it’s demanded. With so little
capital to go around because of this economy, people are
putting their money with the people/admins they know.
However, social marketing can also be very bad for people
if not used in moderation. It really comes down to just
how disciplined people are when they engage in it.
For someone trying to build an income online, it can be very
enticing to spend all day in forums, facebook, etc… versus
rolling their sleeves up and doing stuff that is… well, less
fun. But at the end of the day, if people are not mastering
their skills in this highly competitive environment, they are
going to be seriously hurt in the wallet.
Bottom line, and it took me 40 some years to figure this
out, BALANCE it folks. To much of anything is a bad thing.
I think William Brant made a fantastic post on moderation.
Now for me, sitting around playing Farmville all day isn’t productive at all..
However, retweeting a link or two. Talking to fellow surfers. Liking pages in Sweeva. Those kind of things help not only your name get out there, it shows respect to other folks in the social sphere.
Again, I think this stuff is natural as talking to people on the street and used properly, it’s the way business will be conducted from now on.
Hopefully. Thanks for the posts guys!
I agree social networking is the way of the network i am new at this but the way i see it to build a network you need people. So i think it is about friendships and relationships without people you have no network.
I am just starting in social networking,thanks for the great content